The following interview was conducted backstage Friday, May 12 at Legends Bar & Venue in Cincinnati with co-interviewer Jacqueline Perrin.
Staying power for any band is important. It’s a historical statement showing drive, desire, determination and heart. The glue for Canadian veterans Anvil has always been passion. Passion for making heavy music and that’s what’s motivated guitarist/vocalist Steve ‘Lips’ Kudlow and drummer Robb Reiner since the beginning. Chemistry and brotherhood have kept the Canadian machine running.
Staying together for 45 years is an accomplishment worthy of names etched in stone. Anvil has achieved this milestone, through sheer perseverance and never stopping no matter what life and the road threw at them. Kudlow has led the hammer pounding journey since 1978, through 19 albums, countless tours, struggles and a very successful documentary. Reiner has been his musical partner from the beginning with bassist Chris Robertson on board since 2014. He doesn’t care about fame, fortune or hero worship; he just wants to make metal music.
Their next record coming in 2024 will be #20, a landmark accomplishment. Not to mention a band that started in the late ‘70s, surviving decades, trends, haters and struggles, sustaining success and a life/career changing documentary.
Impact Is Imminent is Anvil’s newest record released last year though Kudlow says #20 is written, with cover art and title ready showing the proven formula of continued success. “Success is writing an album, getting it recorded, released and going on tour. You do that 20 times, you’re really successful. It’s not about how many records you sold or how much money you have. Even the biggest bands have huge sacrifices to make the money they make.”
Impact Is Imminent begins with “Take a Lesson” “It’s my observations of the world around me. People wanna see you fail. People in competition sit and wait for you to fail, not that it’s gonna do any good to them. It’s more beneficial to wish well upon your competitors. Why? When they do well, so do you. That’s what it actually means.”
He says as big as Metallica is, they have a huge payroll, though the bigger they get in the broad heavy music spectrum the bigger Anvil gets. Everyone gets more exposure.
Anvil’s not saving the world though they remove ego and hero worship from the equation. They’re musicians, paid to make music. “That’s my job.” He’s not any better than anyone else in another vocation, getting through life. He doesn’t need the special ‘rock star’ treatment or reverence. “We’re all people with feelings and lives. There’s no use walking around with an attitude of I’m better than you, you’re not.”
His realistic, down to earth approach and attitude includes the Anvil library making 19 records from his imagination, without bravado.
On “Bad Side of Town” he says, “Rob gives me lists of titles, than I see which one fits the music. Then I’ll write the whole song about it. What’s the bad side of town? Pretty easy to think about it, it could be anywhere, anytime.”
“Teabag” is the first of two instrumentals with an interesting story. “We had one instrumental written for the last album, we didn’t have a name for. Sacha Gervasi who made the Anvil movie, calls and says, when are you gonna write a song named after me? We called him teabag when he was a kid, he was English. English people drink tea. No sexual overtones, nothing to do with that.”
In later years he graduated from Teabag to Gomez after talking about his train set. “As soon as he said train set we thought Gomez Addams. Two nicknames Teabag from 14 or 15 and Gomez as of late. When we finished “Teabag” the producer said I wanna bring horns in. I was against it. We did “Swing Thing” on the Juggernaut of Justice album and thought I really don’t wanna repeat myself. He goes it’s not a matter of repeating, it’ll be really interesting. Let me get my guys to score wind instruments on this.”
Kudlow was offered a no strings deal if he didn’t like it and a half-payment deal if he did by his producer. ”How do you say no to that? You can’t lose. If it goes well it costs you half. If you don’t it costs nothing.”
They played “Gomez” for him with horns. “I was blown away, I couldn’t believe it. The contrast of with or without was so powerful you don’t realize it with one listen.” Thus the hornless version became “Teabag” and the horny one became “Gomez.” “You wouldn’t believe this but a high proportion of people listen to the album don’t realize they’re the same song. That was a fascinating endeavor. Glad I did it.”
As the documentary shows, the band has been screwed out of money, dealt with unprofessional bookers, travel schedules promoters and played to small crowds. Kudlow gives his take on the business side of metal from stadium to club level. “Metallica does a show for a million bucks, it costs them a million dollars, nobody thinks about that. The 300 people working for them have to get paid. So does the transportation for those people and everyone else. Where do they make their money? The merchandise, just like I do.”
Kudlow says it’s a hard road at the club level. Shows with higher headliner fees get the promotion while other shows don’t, getting the ‘whoever shows up’ treatment. “You can end up in the club scene for 20 years and never break big. There’s no way to do it from that platform.” Buying on huge tours is the best way to get exposure he says. Its 95-98% luck. “The rest is talent, writing the right song at the right time, getting on a tour if you’re lucky enough. That’s how I see it.”
Most of his favorite music never made it big and a lot of the more talented bands never make it big while lesser bands do. Genius often interferes with playing trying to keep a mega-creative mind busy. “Usually the better you are the further you are from making it. Why? When you’re a refined musician, you can’t play simple. You let things complicate it to keep your own interest. Simplicity sells.”
He’s created difficult music that sounds simple until you have to play it. “That’s the magical aspect. If you can make something complicated sound simple, that’s good musicianship. The more complicated, the further it is from money making. Simple is closer to radio songs.”
Their 2008 documentary Anvil! The Story of Anvil changed their lives personally and professionally allowing them to write record and tour full time. While they made an appearance on That Metal Show, Kudlow says his appearance on Conan O’Brien gave them massive exposure. “In three minutes I was seen by more people in my whole f’n career. That Metal Show was big but not anywhere near Conan O’Brien.”
Brutal honesty is what makes it what it is. “The great success of the Anvil doc is it was done in real time and not in retrospect. Ten minutes talked about the past, the rest, what we were doing now, not what we did. That’s reality TV isn’t it? A reality movie, as shits happening we’re filming it, without a script and that’s awesome.”
The documentary ended with a huge crowd in Japan. “When we got there we found out we were on at 11:30 and thought oh great, there goes that. Who’s gonna be there at 11:30 in the morning? We never took into consideration that Anvil hadn’t been there in 25-30 years. Everybody was gonna be there. That’s why they put us on first. They needed a band that would draw the audience in so the bands that paid to be on the bill got their value. By having Anvil on first, that made sure all the bands after us to the headliner had an audience.”
Kudlow spent several years working different jobs and playing music, notably at Children’s Choice Catering for five years. Though he did it with a smile. “It was hard work, before the movie. I want this understood. I didn’t do this to make millions of dollars. I never did. Never planned on it, I was never interested. I did it to make metal music. I never, ever sold out. I’m never gonna be a mega star.” I own my own real estate. I’m completely f’n financially OK. I didn’t depend on Anvil to make my living.”
The documentary changed everything, changing stature and status making them a must see band on a global level. “We have endless employment. We’ve been on the road and writing albums, recording steadily for 15 years since the movie. I quit my jobs and this is what I do now because I can make a living from it. Not millions but I’m making a living. And that’s a big f’n deal to say in the music industry. Very few can say I make a living in the music industry. If you can, good for you man. You f’n broke the barrier.”
If you come into this business expecting to make a million bucks and think it’s easy, don’t bother. I did it to make metal music, it’s not Taylor Swift.”
Fans often say they never made it. Kudlow strongly disagrees, showing 19 records, with #20 in the making, over 45 years with continuous touring. That’s success!
Among many memorable tunes in their history, “Bitch in the Box” from Pounding the Pavement has a cool story. “On first impression when someone sees the title “Bitch in the Box,” immediately they go, sexist. The fascinating part is it wasn’t me that made the title. I got it from my wife. It was made up by a woman. When I heard that saying I thought, I gotta write a song about that. I was in the car with my wife and she says, ask the bitch in the box. I said the what? She said you know the bitch in the box, the GPS thing.”
He’s attracted to alliteration. “All the titles on all the albums are like that anyway. I came up with the riff. It fits so fucking good. The song took 10 minutes to write. How many times have you been frustrated by a GPS? This is relatable to anybody that’s driven a car. I think it’s an underground hit. Had it been in the 80s it would’ve been on the radio. That’s the thing with Anvil, we’re writing songs that shoulda, coulda woulda been on the radio but never have been.”
Their song about “Pro Wrestling” from Plenty of Power was inspired by Mad Dog the guy that drinks beer through his nose in the movie. He came over one day with a box of VHS tapes with hockey fights. “Six hours of hockey fights. Everything the announcers said I wrote down, filling the page. I wrote lyrics from it.”
They were a band that experienced the PMRC in the ‘80s. “They could’ve had a heyday with us. We did have a lot of questionable lyrics. Misunderstood and underappreciated. We could laugh and say why would you appreciate a song called “Five Knuckle Shuffle.” It’s not easy to write funny or capture comedy. When you have a complete understanding of comedy you have an understanding of life. I really believe that. I’ve done some really interesting comical double meaning. Even when it’s in your face it’s still thought out.”
We had a song on the Pound for Pound album, “Toe Jam,” written to be like square dancing. I used the square dancing formula with sexual innuendos. Not vulgar and not swearing. Cleverly put together like square dance instruction but it’s not. Using lyrics to disguise the filth, well structured and thought out.”
He’s very proud of the bands longevity, “I’ve kept Anvil alive for 45 years touring, writing albums and going against what people think is successful. If you have the love and passion for it, you do what you love, that’s what life’s about. That’s how I look at it. You can always quit, that’s easy, then what. If I quit, then what am I doing tomorrow? I spent my life getting good at this. Is there anywhere to go if you quit? Why would you?”
Ten songs on the next Anvil record are completed, with four or five needing lyrics. “I’ve written 15 songs for the next album. I don’t know if 15 are going on it. I write more than I need so I have choices.”
They already have a title, title track and the album cover done. It’s all there and we’re ready to go. Come August we’re going to Germany to get the recording done. After recording, the album will come in (2024), probably closer to the beginning than the middle. We’ll be touring again. That’s what I do.”
There are still millions of people around the world that haven’t seen Anvil yet and Kudlow wants to change that. “Great thing about that movie it introduces the band to every country in the world. We’re in constant demand. There’s always someplace people want to see us.” It was rereleased this year. “We’ve seen a huge amount of upswing in people coming to see us again. It’s never ending. I’m 67, for the rest of my days, I have a job. I don’t have to sit at home. I have something to do with my life.”
Kudlow and Reiner have the same fighting spirit they started with, with Chris Robertson closing in on a decade. The leather gears long gone but the youthful metalhead spirit and never say die attitude still permeates their ethos and work ethic. You can’t take the metal out of the kid, no matter what age they are. Four-and-a-half decades of music and a killer documentary have immortalized them in history. As long as they’re breathing we’ll hear the sound of metal hitting the Anvil.
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